That’s Debatable!

Welcome to ‘That’s Debatable!’, the weekly podcast of the Free Speech Union. Hosts Tom Harris and Jan Macvarish – both staffers at the FSU – talk about the free speech controversies that have erupted in the past week and interview some of the main protagonists in those dramas. Edited by Jason Clift. Please like, subscribe and share. Thank you.

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Episodes

Unsafe Spaces

Thursday Sep 07, 2023

Thursday Sep 07, 2023

This week we celebrate another significant victory for the FSU! Carl Borg-Neal, 57, was unfairly dismissed and subject to disability discrimination when Lloyds Bank sacked him for using a racial slur during a workplace-based diversity training session. He came to the FSU for help and, following the first-class support of Doyle Clayton at employment tribunal, Carl is now likely to recover a significant sum for damages. Not for the first time, at the heart of the incident was a supposed ‘safe space’ during training that turned out to be anything but. In our discussion we ponder the ever-changing groups of allowable words and banned words. How are ordinary citizens meant to keep up with such rapidly shifting cultural sands? We move onto a very worrying case in Finland. Päivi Räsänen, a former politician, is on trial for hate speech after defending traditional marriage. This follows a 2019 police decision that she had committed no crime and a 2022 acquittal by judges in her first trial. We initially consider the implications of Päivi’s case for free speech across Europe, before moving on to discuss the origins of hate speech, wondering how the concept has come to define such a large piece of our cultural discourse, for both citizens and institutions. What is the line between hate speech, thought crime and even, in an Irish context, pre-crime?

Pax Britannica

Wednesday Aug 30, 2023

Wednesday Aug 30, 2023

We kick off today’s episode exploring the free speech concerns raised in our latest briefing paper on Carbon Literacy Training (interestingly termed ‘Carbon Emergency Training’ by one of the Scottish certified training organisations, ‘Keep Scotland Beautiful’). We fear that CLT may soon embed a further layer of politicisation within the British workplace, hot on the heels of the free speech damage already wrought by equity, diversity & inclusion policies. The extent of self-censorship amongst staff is likely to be intensified where an employer is aggressively seeking accreditation as a higher grade (silver and above) ‘Carbon Literate Organisation’. In such a company, carbon literacy is expected to be included in employees’ performance goals and annual assessment. We would be very interested to hear the views and experiences of any listeners who may have undergone CLT (contact Tom at thomas@freespeechunion.org). Our next item is the important case of Almut Gadow whose case with the Open University concerns fundamental issues of academic freedom. Almut Gadow’s crowd funder has certainly hit a nerve with our supporters and we are immensely grateful to everyone who has contributed thus far. Finally, we explore the issues raised by Denmark’s putting forward of a law to ban the burning of the Koran and other religious texts. We draw on some of the data in our case work and wonder whether authorities are more concerned with the new Pax Britannica than the right to religious expression, including the right to blaspheme.

In Conversation with Sibyl Ruth

Wednesday Aug 23, 2023

Wednesday Aug 23, 2023

In early 2022, Sibyl Ruth was working for Cornerstones Literary Consultancy as one of their ‘core editors’. Odd things began to happen in May when she was informed that her client no longer required her services. Sibyl then found out that her profile had been removed from the Cornerstones Editors’ page. The next thing she knew, the company had halted any work that Sibyl was doing for them and had effectively terminated her. Ultimately a Subject Access Request revealed that a member of staff had objected to Sibyl’s gender critical views as expressed on Twitter. This was a total shock for Sibyl since, although she is a principled and proud feminist, she has always been open to discussion, debate and compromise; but her termination by Cornerstones was sudden and brutal. On the advice of friends, Sibyl contact the Free Speech Union where she quickly realised that that she wasn’t alone and that this was part of a larger pattern; what listeners will recognise immediately as cancel culture or, in this case, the new ‘purification’ of the publishing world. Towards the end of our conversation, and following the controversy at Calderdale library services, we touch on the latest trend of certain local authorities hiding books that don’t align with current ideology. Sibyl provides some helpful context to the phenomenon, explaining how library workers are often caught in a bind (pun intended!) where customer facing staff may be left to cope with little to no relevant training. If any listeners would like to support Sibyl, then do visit her crowd funder. As Sibyl emphasises during the episode, she is hugely grateful to every single person who has helped her in this campaign.

Woke, Ltd

Wednesday Aug 16, 2023

Wednesday Aug 16, 2023

Woke privilege” is a phrase coined by a listener to describe ‘those who follow the woke orthodoxy and experience all the privileges of not being cancelled’. People with Woke Privilege are free to express their woke opinions, they’re lauded online, and work promotions generally come easily to them. We would posit that Woke Privilege has certainly found a comfortable home within the B Corp movement, which features in today’s episode following the publication of the FSU’s latest report, Woke, Ltd. We discuss our motivation for writing the report and why we are so concerned that the proliferation of B Corps could have some very deleterious effects on freedom of expression, especially if the so-called Better Business Act reaches the statute books. This week, a video of West Yorkshire police arresting a 16-year-old autistic girl has caused profound discomfort across the nation. We discuss how it can be that the police can have reached a place where a child’s exclamation that an officer ‘looks like my lesbian nana’ can trigger such an apparently disproportionate response (though we concede that the video may not provide a complete picture). Over the last two years or so, West Yorkshire police has featured in at least another four public incidents relating to freedom of expression. It would seem that we have found a very good candidate for some of that training we discussed in the FSU’s previous report.

Thursday Aug 10, 2023

It’s a cliché, but Sharron Davies MBE really needs no introduction. One of Britain’s greatest Olympic medallists, she dominated women’s swimming throughout the 1980s. As Sharron makes clear during this discussion, her new book, Unfair Play: The Battle for Women’s Sport  was written to give people the knowledge and power to fight back against the incredible level of unfairness that women and girls are facing across the sporting world. Having experienced the injustice of competing against the doped-up East German swimmers in the 1970s and 80s, Sharron understands first-hand what it means to operate at the most elite level possible yet face a profoundly unfair field. She quickly discerned the disastrous decisions that were being made in the 2000s by sporting authorities, starting with the removal of sex screening by the IOC (International Olympic Committee). In our discussion, we explore the major themes explored in the book, including the emergence of a new incarnation of virtue-signalling misogyny, the fundamental importance of empiricism, and the heart-breaking effect that today’s unfairness is having on women and girls. Sharron passionately believes in the life-affirming impact of sport and that it should be for all; we simply need to define our categories in a way that makes participation fair. Both Sharron and the Free Speech Union were delighted that the generosity of one of our Founder Members, Alan Hearne, has made it possible for copies of the book to be sent to over 80 national and international sporting bodies. The accompanying letters either congratulate those which have already taken notice of the evidence and taken steps to protect the female competitive category or urged them to read the book and re-open debate if they have yet to do so.

Tuesday Aug 01, 2023

#IstandwithJKRowling. When Gillian Philip, a successful children’s author, added that statement to her twitter handle in June 2020, she soon found herself subject to a twitter pile on. The mob accused Gillian of being “transphobic” and a “TERF” (standing for trans-exclusionary radical feminist) – the latter a familiar slur so easily thrown around by transgender activists. Soon afterwards, her publishers, Working Partners and Harper Collins, cancelled their contract with her. Inevitably, this experience of cancel culture took a huge personal toll on Gillian, but she was determined to fight back! As so often happens, the activists didn’t fully appreciate the risk of going up against such a focused, tenacious, and strong woman as Gillian.

Wednesday Jul 26, 2023

We open our episode with the encouraging thought that the UK’s free speech woes repeatedly drive us back to hear and be inspired by the voice (and music!) of past genius. Then the big news item of the week is the FSU’s ‘de-banking’ victory. As many listeners already know, the government will now be tightening up the Payment Services Regulations to make it impossible for banks and payment processors to cancel people’s accounts just because they disagree with their perfectly lawful political belief. During our conversation, we focus on the elements of this very public discussion that have most intrigued us. Why do some commentators seem unable to appreciate the threat that de-banking represents to all UK citizens across the political spectrum? Ben introduces the idea of cognitive decoupling, which may go some way to explain the alternative reactions. The principle of Chesterton’s Fence is another helpful tool with which to interpret some of the more disastrous applications of woke ideology. As we wonder whether all this de-banking publicity will lead to a retreat or advance of woke ideology, we touch on Lord Frost’s recent article in the Telegraph that describes an ominous new state ideology.  

Wednesday Jul 19, 2023

There is a fierce battle for free speech taking place in the Republic of Ireland, where the proposed Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred or Hate Offences) Bill (‘CJB’) is expected to radically extend the scope of hate crime. In that context, we are delighted to welcome Sarah Hardiman, spokesperson for Free Speech Ireland (FSI), to this week’s episode of ‘That’s Debatable’. Top of the list of the FSI’s concerns is the lack of clarity around essential definitions within the CJB, such as the definition of ‘hate‘ itself!  Our discussion touches on several areas that will be familiar to our listeners such as the practical problems of policing hate laws, the tension between lobby groups and individual citizens, and what appears to be the ubiquitous inadequacy of state education systems in relaying the vital importance of free expression in a free society. A significant motivator for Sarah and the FSI is the demonstrable support from individual Irish citizens who, following more thorough reporting in the national and international press, are clearly quite horrified at the more perverse implications of the bill as currently drafted; dawn raids for possession of wrong think documents being a good example. If you would like to support the FSI in this essential fight, then please do visit their website at https://freespeechireland.ie and follow the FSI across their social media channels.

Tuesday Jul 11, 2023

Direct from her recent win at a Leeds Employment Tribunal, we are very excited to welcome Denise Fahmy to this episode of ‘That’s Debatable’. Denise worked at Arts Council England for 15 years but, as you will hear, was subjected to some quite appalling harassment from other council employees when she spoke up for LGB Alliance during an internal staff meeting. After discussing what happened to her, Denise goes on to talk about how the side-lining of gender critical content doesn’t always lead to overt cancellation, but instead causes a general chill in which gender critical output is simply missing from arts shortlists and events. Combined with weak organisational leadership, this frostiness explains why art funding decisions often fail to be impartial and can be so influenced by ideological employee groups. We also explore the general state of the arts in the current woke cultural environment. Denise offers fascinating and measured insight into the arts world including the rise of the art curator, who now operates as the gatekeeper between creator and end consumer. We also wonder whether some interesting art may arise from contemplation of cancel culture itself, a planned July staged reading of the recent Mermaids vs LGB Alliance court battle being a case in point: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/mermaids-vs-the-alliance-a-staged-reading-tickets-666999352017 

Tuesday Jul 04, 2023

If, in Cher’s immortal words, we could turn back time five years, say, and describe the essence of today’s episode to a group of level-headed UK citizens, we are pretty sure they would label us fantasists and loons. But the fact is that we are now living in a society where a British colonel with an impeccable service record can be forced out of the army for supporting the idea that men can’t be women and women can’t be men. Who runs the British army? Stonewall’s enthusiastic commissars, it seems. We also report back on some headline statistics from the FSU’s cancel culture survey. Cancel culture does affect people’s well-being (at least 75% of those cancelled), it is rarely a surprise to the person being cancelled, and it really isn’t just a right-wing myth. For their next treat, those 2018 Cher fans can hear how the Chinese social credit system is taking root across our banking system, with high street names happily shutting down the accounts of all those pesky customers who think wrong thoughts. Finally, we head back to rather less familiar territory, 2023, and report back on a day out at Pride London. We reflect on the importance of discernment and wisdom when trying to work out what might really be going on.

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